The episode argues that Zodiac is a slow-burn procedural about obsession, unknowability, and the burden of unresolved evil, with the hosts praising its research, visual precision, and rewatchability. They frame it as a Fincher film that grows richer over time, especially for repeat viewings, and they spend much of the episode mapping the movie’s structure, performances, and real-world case details.
Based only on this episode’s transcriptTimes approximateSpeakers were clearly identifiedExplore the connections
01Its layered construction rewards repeat viewing, with visual clues and background details that only register on rewatch. About 8 min
02The film is structured as a two-part experience: the murders and investigation first, then the long-term fallout and obsession afterward. About 8 min
03Fincher’s digital style makes the movie feel modern and easy to revisit on streaming, rather than like a dated artifact. About 8 min
04The scene work is dense and highly memorable, so even a partial watch still delivers strong payoff. About 8 min
05The cast chemistry, especially Downey and Gyllenhaal, makes the movie fun to return to even amid the grim subject matter. About 32 min
WHAT DID NOT WORK
Their main criticisms
minorThe movie’s February release is treated as a possible reason it was underappreciated and under-awarded at the time. Opening minutes · medium confidence
minorThe movie can feel overcomplicated or blurry in its case details, especially for viewers who do not already know the story. About 56 min
minorThe four-year time jump is abrupt and can feel structurally jarring. About 1:28
minorThe basement scene is so overtly designed to scare the audience that one host feels it works less on repeat viewing. About 32 min
minorA few plot connections, such as the Avery Riverside detour and some witness logic, are treated as messy or underexplained. About 1:12
SCENES THEY KEPT COMING BACK TO
Standout moments
Favorite
Lover’s Lane opening murder
The opening murder and Hurdy Gurdy Man needle drop immediately establish the film’s menace and period texture.
About 16 min Favorite
The first Graysmith-Avery bar scene
Their early drinking and decoding scene is singled out as excellent character chemistry.
About 2:08 Favorite
The interrogation of Arthur Lee Allen
The tense police interview with Allen is treated as the movie’s standout performance sequence.
About 24 min Favorite
The basement scene
The hidden-room basement sequence is described as one of the scariest scenes ever put on film.
About 16 min positive
The taxi-cab crime scene
The police work around the cab murder is praised as a great procedural scene and a good example of the movie’s drudgery.
About 1:12 positive
The Melvin Belli television call
The live TV call sequence is admired for Brian Cox’s theatrical presence and the film’s media texture.
About 2:16 critical
The Lake Berryessa attack
The lakeside stabbing is one of the most upsetting murder scenes in the film and a centerpiece of its horror.
About 48 min mixed
The Avery-to-Riverside detour
The detour where Avery follows a lead to Riverside is entertaining but a little confusing and structurally awkward.
About 1:12
WHERE THEY DISAGREED
The biggest debates
They partly agreed About 2:32
Whether Arthur Lee Allen was the Zodiac killer
Bill Simmons
Leans toward Allen as the real killer, especially for the Darlene murder and the circumstantial evidence.
Chris Ryan
Thinks the case is plausible but broader uncertainty and multiple-theory ambiguity remain.
Sean Fennessey
Treats Allen as the strongest candidate while emphasizing the limits of the evidence.
They left it as a friendly argument About 2:16
Who should have played Graysmith and Toski
Bill Simmons
Suggests Cruise and Hanks as a hypothetical pair, then settles on Cruise for Graysmith.
Sean Fennessey
Prefers Hanks as Toski and Cruise as Graysmith in the alternate-casting game.
Chris Ryan
Pushes back on some alternatives but does not settle the matter definitively.
They partly agreed About 1:28
Whether the movie’s four-year leap is a flaw
Bill Simmons
Thinks the time jump is abrupt and the most awkward structural choice.
Sean Fennessey
Thinks the jump is part of the movie’s design, signaling a shift into the second half.
Chris Ryan
Mostly agrees it changes the film but frames it as an intentional tonal shift.
They partly agreed About 2:40
Whether the basement scene still fully works on rewatch
Bill Simmons
Feels it is less effective after repeated viewings because the construction is more obvious.
Sean Fennessey
Agrees it is more obviously engineered but still effective and unsettling.
19 People discussedActors, directors, writers, and producers
neutralMelvin BelliBill Simmons: Discussed as a famous 1970s lawyer whose TV appearances and publicity are part of the film’s media texture. About 32 min
criticalArthur Lee AllenChris Ryan: Presented as the strongest suspect in the film and the case’s central circumstantial figure. About 48 min
favorablePaul AveryBill Simmons: Viewed as a great newspaper character and one of the movie’s best drinking-and-smoking personalities. About 2:00
favorableRobert GraysmithSean Fennessey: Seen as the obsessive outsider whose note-taking and amateur sleuthing drive the second half of the film. About 48 min
favorableBong Joon-hoSean Fennessey: Mentioned as a Fincher admirer whose Memories of Murder echoes this movie’s investigative style. About 2:48 · medium confidence
14 Conversation takesSpeakers shown only where the transcript identifies them
Treats Allen as the most plausible suspect in the movie but acknowledges the broader case remains unresolved.
About 2:32
5 ThemesThe larger ideas in the discussion
Obsession without closure
The film is repeatedly described as being about fixation on a mystery that never yields a clean answer.
About 8 min
Information overload and bureaucracy
The movie’s power comes from its detail-rich depiction of scattered police departments, newspapers, and incomplete records.
About 48 min
Unknowability of evil
The hosts emphasize that the movie refuses easy catharsis and instead confronts the audience with unresolved violence.
Opening minutes
Gen-X memory and cultural decay
The film is read as a nostalgic but dark look back at late-60s/early-70s California and the end of a more trusting era.
About 1:44 · medium confidence
Fincher as systems-and-behavior director
They admire Fincher’s precision, his use of technology, and his fascination with perverse human behavior.
About 1:12
25 Facts and referencesProduction notes and other movies mentioned
Production note
Fincher and Vanderbilt spent about 18 months interviewing living witnesses, cops, and newspaper people and re-building the investigation from police reports.
About 16 min
Production note
The film was delayed from a 2006 awards-season release and instead came out in February 2007.
Opening minutes
Production note
The movie was shot digitally with a Thompson Viper camera and is praised for looking unusually good in 4K.
About 8 min
Production note
Fincher reportedly added digital hair to Jake Gyllenhaal’s hand close-ups because they looked too clean.
About 2:48
Production note
The movie uses different actors for some kill scenes, and the 4K transfer makes that more visible.
About 16 min
Production note
The blood in the Lake Berryessa stabbing was digitally added so the costumes would not have to be reset repeatedly.
About 2:48
Production note
They say Penne alla vodka as ordered in the first-date scene is an anachronism because the dish did not exist in the 1970s.
About 2:48
Production note
The film omits the first attack for the reason that there were no living witnesses to corroborate it.
About 48 min
Production note
Fincher reportedly choppered in trees to recreate the Lake Berryessa setting as it had looked at the time.
About 2:48
Production note
A porn parody titled The Zodiac Killer starring John Holmes is mentioned as an actual thing.
About 2:48
All the President’s Men
Used as the key newsroom-procedural comparison for Zodiac.
About 16 min
Spotlight
Cited as another investigative jigsaw-puzzle movie with newspaper work.
About 16 min
Dirty Harry
Used to contrast a solved cop story with Zodiac’s unsolved reality.
About 8 min
Mindhunter
Referenced as spiritually related to Zodiac and influenced by its interrogation style.
About 24 min
The Social Network
Mentioned as part of Fincher’s later peak and as a film that builds on Zodiac’s digital craft.
About 1:20
Seven
Used as the satisfying, more conventional serial-killer movie Zodiac refuses to be.
Opening minutes
Fight Club
Cited as part of Fincher’s run and as an example of his perverse worldview.
About 56 min
Panic Room
Referenced as an earlier Fincher movie and as part of his development before Zodiac.
About 16 min
The Game
Used as another example of Fincher’s mean-spirited, unsettling storytelling.
About 1:52
Gone Girl
Cited as one of Fincher’s later peaks and part of his fascination with dark behavior.
About 1:52
The Killer
Mentioned as one of Fincher’s later works that merits more revisiting.
About 2:48
Mank
Referenced as another Fincher passion project connected to his father.
About 2:48
Memories of Murder
Referenced as a direct or adjacent influence in the killer’s appearance and the 'looked normal' line.
About 2:48
The Most Dangerous Game
Used to discuss the idea of human hunting and a cultural source for Zodiac-style dread.
About 40 min
The Zodiac speaking
Referenced as a documentary title that covers the case and its participants.
About 2:08 · medium confidence
12 Running jokes and short linesRecurring bits captured from the conversation
Downey/Graysmith smoking and drinking bit
Repeated jokes about Downey’s cigarette handling, Aqua Velva drinking, and general 70s newspaper-guy swagger.
About 2:00
Financial/streaming and Netflix jokes
They keep circling the fact that the podcast and movie are now on Netflix and joke about the platform’s role in rewatchability.
Opening minutes
Fincher gulag / many takes bit
They joke that Fincher runs a movie set like a gulag, endlessly taking and retaking scenes until they are right.
About 2:00
Joel Embiid / obsession analogies
Chris repeatedly compares Graysmith’s obsession with his own sports fixation, especially Joel Embiid.
About 24 min
Serial-killer Reddit / amateur sleuthing bit
The hosts joke about Reddit theories, AI-driven case solving, and the constant stream of new suspects.
About 2:32
Wooden dildo bit
The trailer’s wooden dildo becomes a recurring punchline and artifact of extremity.
About 48 min
That-guy cast roll call
They spend a long stretch identifying supporting actors as quintessential 'that guys.'
About 1:20
Bill Simmons
“movies aren't finished, they're abandoned”
About 40 min
Chris Ryan
“people are fundamentally perverts”
About 1:52
Bill Simmons
“I am the Zodiac”
About 40 min
Sean Fennessey
“the highest level version of mostly what we look at now”
About 8 min
Bill Simmons
“I need to know, in or out?”
About 2:16
MAKE IT A MOVIE NIGHT
Where to watch
UNITED STATES
Checking where Zodiac ("The Re-Zodiac") is available…
WHAT TO WATCH NEXT
Movies to watch before and after.
Three movies to watch before Zodiac, and three to watch next.
Finding six movies…Three to watch first and three to watch next.
ON THE MIC
3 voices made the call
Bill Simmons125 tracked appearances · 56 H / 64 C / 5 ties
Chris Ryan77 tracked appearances · 36 H / 38 C / 3 ties
Sean Fennessey35 tracked appearances · 15 H / 17 C / 3 ties
